Peterism 101 Commentary
by Ves 1/14/2025 My comments in red.  This originally started as just a rebuttal to the 101 document which is duplicated below with comments.  But I wanted to put scriptures behind all this.  So, there is an extensive ChatGPT discussion following, where I probe into various key point and go beyond what the 101 document goes into.  This is literally a 40 page document.  But if you're intersted in Preterism, what they believe, why, and what the problems are with their view, you'll find it here.  

Here is a list of preterist passages compiled by David A. Green. This compilation puts an exclamation point to the importance of the imminency passages in the New Testament:

1. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 3:2)  It was and it is.  We are living in the Kingdom now. It's all the believers, or as it's called, the church.

2. Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? (Matthew 3:7)  Yup, wrath was coming, the destruction of the Temple, Jerusalem, and the Jewish religion.

3. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. (Matthew 3:10)  Redundant, addressed.

4. His winnowing fork is in His hand. (Matthew 3:12) Redundant, addressed.

5. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17) Redundant, addressed.

6. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 10:7) Redundant, addressed.

7. You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:23)  Yup.  The Apostles were still evangalizing Israel when the Son of Man came.  Note that this "coming" is a coming in judgement, just as the previous verses talk about, that wrath was coming.  To understand this language we can look at the Old Testament and see that it's used when God executes judgement on a nation.  So, the coming of the Son of Man in this context is the coming wrath which John the Baptist was warning about.  And which Jesus prophesied about.

8. the age about to come (Matthew 12:32)  Yeah, what age is that?  We know that the present age was ending.  The age of the Mosaic law and the Mosaic covenant.  The end of Israel and the religion as they knew it.  What replaced it?  The new covenant, Jesus.  So, the "age about to come" is the age of the new covenant, the church age.  Where both believing Jews and Gentiles are all one nation under God, the actual "Israel".  Because we know that not all descendants of Israel are Israel.  It's the remnant of the Jews, plus the gentiles, all believers in Christ.

9. The Son of Man is about to come (OR is going to come) in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. (Matthew 16:27) There is no indication that this will happen at any particular time, and also, given that there is talk of rewarding each person, it implies it is at the final judgement where ALL people will be.  If we say this happened in AD70, then that means anyone born after that would not be rewarded.  Which of course makes no sense.

10. There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matthew 16:28; cf. Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27)  This is refering to the Kingdom of God coming with Power.  This is not the same things as God's wrath coming against Jerusalem.  If we look at the establishment of the Kingdom, the greatest demonstration of power was on the day of Pentecost. And on that day, thousands beleived and entered God's Kingdom, the church.  And yes, all the disciples were still alive when it happened, except for Judas.

11. “When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.” . . . “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.”. . . When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. (Matthew 21:40-41, 43, 45)  And? Yes, God's wrath brought them to a wretched end and he rented out the vinyard to the nation producing the fruit he wanted from Israel to start with.  The church, the believers, are that nation of priests; the Kingdom of God.  Notice that it does not say anything about "rewarding" people which is associated with the second coming and the final judgement.  Recall when Jesus was talking about Sodom and Gamorrah.  They were judged by God, destroyed.  Yet Jesus said it will be easier for them at the judgement than the cities that rejected Christ.  This shows us that there is a difference between God bringing wrath as a physical judgement vs. the final judgment which will happen at the second coming of Christ.

12. This generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:34)  And notice again that this is talking about the coming in wrath, the physical judgement of Jerusalem.  No mention of rewards, which doesn't happen until the Son of Man comes in verse 44 and then there is reward an punishment with weeping of teeth associated with the final judgement in 45-51.  Coming in Wrath and physical judgement, is not the same event as the second coming and final judgement of all souls.

13. From now on, you [Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin] shall be seeing the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. (Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69)  This is actually a reference to Old Testament passages to drive the fact home that he  was claiming to be the Son of God.  They understood this as a claim to divinity.  This is not an indication that the Sanhedrin would physically see Jesus come.  That is taking the OT passages literally, and there is no justification for assuming that.  Also, Jesus said that he would show himself to those who belived and He and His Father would make their home with him, and the world will not see him.  That supports the idea that the Sanhedrin was not going to receive the privilege of actually seeing Jesus sitting at the right hand of God.  Note also that when Stephen was being stoned, he DID see that, but those around him did not. 

14. The kingdom of God is at hand. (Mark 1:15) Redundant, addressed.

15. What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. . . . They [the chief priests, scribes and elders] understood that He spoke the parable against them. (Mark 12:9, 12) Redundant, addressed.

16. This generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Mark 13:30) Redundant, addressed.

17. Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? (Luke 3:7) Flee from the wrath, not the Kingdom.

18. The axe is already laid at the root of the trees. (Luke 3:9) Redundant, addressed.

19. His winnowing fork is in His hand. (Luke 3:17) Redundant, addressed.

20. The kingdom of God has come near to you. (Luke 10:9) Redundant, addressed.

21. The kingdom of God has come near. (Luke 10:11) Redundant, addressed.

22. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others. . . . The scribes and the chief priests. . . . understood that He spoke this parable against them. (Luke 20:15-16, 19) Redundant, addressed.

23. These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (Luke 21:22) Redundant, addressed.

24. This generation will not pass away until all things take place. (Luke 21:32) Redundant, addressed.

25. Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, “Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.” (Luke 23:28-30; compare Revelation 6:14-17)  Yup, wrath coming.  Sure, Revelation could be referring to this.  I'll take this opportunity to say that is different than the judgement in Rev 20.  That comes after Armageddon and after Jesus' return.  Two different events.

26. We were hoping that He was the One who is about to redeem Israel. (Luke 24:21)  Yes, this reflects the belief that most Jews had that the Messiah was going to physically save the Israelites from Rome.  They were wrong.  He came to save the faithful remnant, and the Gentiles, from Sin.

27. I will come to you. . . . In that Day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in Me, and I in you. . . . Lord, what then has happened that You are about to disclose Yourself to us, and not to the world? (John 14:18, 20, 22)  Yup, he came to them in the form of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus is the Spirit.

28. If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? (John 21:22)  Even the passage after this says that as a result the others thought mistakenly that this meant that John would stay alive until Jesus' physical return... the key word is mistakenly.  This does not imply a time frame.

29. This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: “And it shall be in the last days. . .” (Acts 2:16-17)  Yeah, and that's exactly what started happening at Pentecost.  Implying you know how long the last days are is a big assumption, considering even Jesus didn't know when he would return, only the Father.  We're in the last days.

30. He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness. (Acts 17:31)  Yes he has, and as Jesus says multiple times, it's the "last day" which is described at Rev 20:12-15.

31. There is about to be (OR is going to be) a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. (Acts 24:15) And of course, this implies ALL the righteous and wicked, including all the people that were on the Earth before the flood, and everyone after... 10's of millions?  Did that happen?  Nope.  At the time of the crucifixion some people did rise from graves, but they went to the city, they didn't get judged or rewarded.

32. As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come. (Acts 24:25)  Yup, judgement on the nation, not judgement of all souls when all the books are opened, as described in Revelation.

33. Not for [Abraham’s] sake only was it written, that [faith] was reckoned to him [as righteousness], but for our sake also, to whom it is about to be reckoned. (Romans 4:23-24)  I don't know what you think this means.  It just means that the righteous are those of the faith of Abraham, who have faith in Christ.

34. If you are living according to the flesh, you are about to die. (Romans 8:13)  Wrong.  This is a really bad translation.  Try this NIV: For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Or even KJV: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
There's NO "about to die"... that's an intentional mistranslation to try and push that the second coming was the judgement that came in AD70. 
This is just talking about the general principal that if you keep sinning you will die.  Sin results in spiritual death, and without repentance it will lead to the final condemnation at the final judgement.

35. I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us. (Romans 8:18)  Wrong.  Same problem as above.  Intentionally trying to make it seem like it's right now.

36. It is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand. (Romans 13:11-12)  Sure, there was a day when they believed and now that day is past, and every day since then salvation is one day closer.  That's all we can say from this passage, since we already know even Jesus didn't know the time or day of the second coming.  But, we do know that Jesus said he will come like a thief, when we least expect him, so it would be correct to expect him any day.  Even today.

37. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. (Romans 16:20)  Paul was talking to the Romans who were highly persecuted.  The best way to understand that would be in that historical light.  Whatever was going on with them would soon stop.

38. The time has been shortened. (1 Corinthians 7:29)  Shortened from what? Since Paul didn't know when Jesus would return.  The best interpretation is shorter than it was when they first believed, just like in Romans 13.  Anything else is speculation. It could also be referring to persecutions which were passing, shorter now.

39. The form of this world is passing away. (1 Corinthians 7:31)  It sure is... every day.

40. Now these things . . . were written for our instruction, upon whom the end (OR culmination) of the ages has come. (1 Corinthians 10:11) And yes, the church age is the end of all the ages.  Because when the gospel is preached to all nations, and the last Gentile to be saved is saved, all the ages come to an end... The last day of history.

41. We shall not all fall sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)  Exactly, but you're missing the part where those who are changed will meet those who are coming back with Christ from heaven, and they will be transformed first... Transformed into what?  To be like Christ... with a physical, glorified body.  We will be as he is.  This is basic Christian doctrine, the hope of resurrection and to be like Jesus.  This is second coming.

42. Maranatha! [The Lord comes!] (1 Corinthians 16:22)  No.  Come Lord! Paul didn't look up and see the Lord coming as he was writing this letter, which is what your wording implies.  Same twisting to try and force it to mean something it doesn't.

43. not only in this age, but also in the one about to come (Ephesians 1:21)  And?  What age is that? The one where we have eternal life.  When does that start?  When we believe, Jesus said so.  And then it just continues through our death and resurrection, and then finally the New Heaven and Earth.

44. The Lord is near. (Philippians 4:5)  Yeah, actually he's inside of every believer. Where he can hear us rejoicing, like that passage talks about.

45. The gospel . . . was proclaimed in all creation under heaven. (Colossians 1:23; compare Matthew 24:14; Romans 10:18, 16:26; Colossians 1:5-6; 2 Timothy 4:17; Revelation 14:6-7; cf. 1 Clement 5, 7)  And?  The gospel has been preached to everyone.  We are told that we are without excuse because we can see God's nature in his creation.  And in Col 1:6 is says bearing fruit and growing, not that it's fully grown.  Matt says will be preached.  Romans 10:18 is talking about the non believing Jews, and is saying they heard the message.  Yes, the mystery has been revealed.  2 Tim 2:17 doesn't say all the Gentiles heard it, just that they might.  Rev 14:6-7, yeah and? The gospel is still being preached.  This is a hodge podge of despearte verses trying to make them say something they don't.

46. things which are a shadow of what is about to come (No. Were to come) (Colossians 2:16-17)  That's right, all the ceremony and sacrifice of the Old Testament are just shadows of the reality of Christ, which you conveniently left out of your quote.

47. We who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord. . . . We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. . . . You, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief . . . (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17; 5:4)  That's right.  Jesus said I will come at an hour when you do not expect me, like a thief.  If it doesn't happen today, it could happen tomorrow.  It's always imminent. Be ready.

48. May your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)  Doesn't say when... Doesn't say judgement, so the assumption would be second coming...

49. It is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-7)  Hard to say what this is.  If this is AD70 then the relief could come from the fact that the Jews would be wiped out and stop persecuting the Christians.

50. Godliness . . . holds promise for the present life and that which is about to come (is to come). (I Timothy 4:8)  Same problem.  Making some future time seem like now.

51. I charge you . . . that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Timothy 6:14)  Yup, could be any day!

52. storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for that which is about to come (the coming age, not is about to), so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed (1 Timothy 6:19)  Same problem. Forcing some future time to seem like it's just around the corner.

53. In the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self . . . Avoid these men. For of these are those who enter into households and captivate weak women . . . These also oppose the truth . . . But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all. (2 Timothy 3:1-2, 5-6, 8-9)  Yup. We're there!  Are you under the impression that this type of behavior stopped in AD70?  If you are, then you have a problem with perception of what's going on in the world.

54. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is about to (NO! who will!) judge the living and the dead. (2 Timothy 4:1)  Same problem!

55. God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son. (Hebrews 1:1-2)  Yup.  We're still in the last days.

56. Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who are about to (Will!) inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:14) Just stop.  I'm not even going to respond to any more of these attempts at twisting time, always using the near tense.

57. He did not subject to angels the world about to come. (Hebrews 2:5)

58. and have tasted . . . the powers of the age about to come (Hebrews 6:5)

59. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near a curse, and its end is for burning. (Hebrews 6:7-8)  Yes, in the end it will be burned.  When is the end and what is being talked about?  On the last day, when Jesus returns.  And this is talking about Christians who fall away, because it's impossible to bring them back to repentance.  Judgement will be on the last day when the get thrown into the fire.

60. When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Hebrews 8:13)  Yup, completely disappeared in AD70... not the second coming.  The new covenant in Jesus supercedes it.

61. The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way of the [heavenly] Holy Places has not yet been revealed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. (Hebrews 9:8-10)  It's no wonder you can't undestand any of this.  This is a terrible translation. 

62. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things about to come. (Hebrews 9:11)

63. Now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin. (Hebrews 9:26)  Yup, once and for all... That doesn't mean AD70 is the second coming.  We're still in the end times.

64. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things about to come. (Hebrews 10:1)

65. as you see the Day drawing near (Hebrews 10:25)  Yeah? How near is it?  Care to guess?

66. the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries (Hebrews 10:27)

67. For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay. (Hebrews 10:37)

68. For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the one that is about to come. (Hebrews 13:14)

69. Speak and so act, as those who are about to be judged by the law of liberty. (James 2:12)  That's right.  The second coming and the judgement could come any day.

70. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. . . . It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! (James 5:1, 3) Yup, we're in the last days.

71. Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. (James 5:7) Yup, could be a while!

72. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. (James 5:8)

73. salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5)

74. He . . . has appeared in these last times for the sake of you. (1 Peter 1:20)

75. They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. (1 Peter 4:5)  Yup, he's ready.  This will happen on the last day... the day of judgement of all souls, at the second coming.

76. The end of all things is at hand; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. (1 Peter 4:7)  Any day!

77. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God. (1 Peter 4:17) It definitely will.

78. as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is about to be revealed (1 Peter 5:1) 

79. We have the prophetic word . . . which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the Day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1:19)  And?

80. Their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. (2 Peter 2:3) And?

81. In the last days mockers will come . . . For this they willingly are ignorant of . . . . (2 Peter 3:3, 5)  Yup, still there.

82. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God. (2 Peter 3:10-12)  Woooot! Woooot!  That's right!  You should take this to heart, because it says the Earth and it's works will be burned up.  He was writing to Christians in Asia minor, NOT those in Jerusalem that saw AD70, which shows you that another time is coming when the entire Earth will burn up, not just Jerusalem.  SECOND COMING, don't miss it!

83. The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining. (1 John 2:8)  Yup.

84. The world is passing away, and its desires. (1 John 2:17) Yup.

85. It is the last hour. (1 John 2:18) Last hour for what?  Can't be the second coming, because even Jesus said he didn't know when that would be.

86. Even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour. (1 John 2:18; compare Matthew 24:23-34)

87. This is that of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. (1 John 4:3; compare 2 Thessalonians 2:7)  What?  You think just because there's antichrist that it's the end of the world?  Hardly.

88. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation. . . . About these also Enoch . . . prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly. . . .” (Jude 1:4, 14-15) So what?  Most likely AD70.  Doesn't mean it's the second coming.

89. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, “In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.” These are the ones who cause divisions. . . . (Jude 1:17-19) Yup, still are today, more than there were then!

90. to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place (Revelation 1:1)  Yeah.  Much of what's in Revelation is regarding what happened in AD70, but not all of it.  The other passages in the NT which talk about the final judgement show that we're currently in Rev 20, waiting for Armageddon (middle of verse 9), the return of Christ, and the judgement.

91. The time is near. (Revelation 1:3)  It was.. to AD70, not the second coming, resurrection, and judgement of all souls that ever lived.

92. Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. (Revelation 2:25)  Still holding for second coming.

93. I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is about to come upon the whole world. (Revelation 3:10)  OK.  AD70.

94. I am coming quickly. (Revelation 3:11) AD70

95. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. (Revelation 12:5)

96. And in her [the Great City Babylon] was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth. (Revelation 18:24; compare Matthew 23:35-36; Luke 11:50-51)  Could be Jerusalem AD70.

97. to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place (Revelation 22:6) AD70 shortly, not the final judgement. Resurrection hasn't happened yet.

98. Behold, I am coming quickly. (Revelation 22:7) AD70.. NOT second coming.

99. Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. (Revelation 22:10; compare Daniel 8:26; 12:4)  Yup.  AD70, not second coming. No resurrection yet! No glorified bodies.  Where's yours?

100. Behold, I am coming quickly. (Revelation 22:12) SAME!

101. Yes, I am coming quickly. (Revelation 22:20) SAME!  He did in judgement, not second coming.  


Notice that there are no passages talking about the actual second coming and the last day, when it's talking about the final judgement, or all the times Jesus said he would raise us up on the last day, and no passages that talk about the bodily resurrection of Christ and that we will be like him when he returns.  Totally biased selection of verses to try and prove AD70 was the second coming and it still doesn't show that.  FAIL!  Please try again. 



This is a discussion I had with ChatGPT about the whole Preterist view:

Ok, put yourself in the position of a hard core Preterist and answer these questions from that perspective:

- Where is Christ now, and will he always be there?
- What was the point of him having a physical body if none of his subjects will have physical bodies? How is he an example of what we will be. The NT clearly tells us that we will be like him.
- What happens in the world? How long does it last? What happens to the world governments?
- How does the reality of the New Heaven and Earth actually manifest? What does it look like to you?
- As a Christian, what does God say your hope for the future should be?
- Where do you go after you die and in what state will you be?
- If the the second coming did happen, then the judgement of all formerly living and currently living humans took place at that time. The goats were separated from the sheep. Is there any record in history of that happening; the entire human race standing before God and being judged on what they have done.
- If the evil were all tossed in the fire with Satan, at the time of judgement, why are there still evil people? - What are the "books" in revelation out of which everyone was judged? What purpose did they serve if not to sort the good from the bad? They were thrown into the fire, along with Satan, the false prophet, and the beast, so now what?
- Who was the false prophet and the beast? If that prophecy is already done, then it should be clear who they were.
ChatGPT said:

Here’s a response from the perspective of a hardcore Preterist:

1. Where is Christ now, and will He always be there?

Christ is reigning in heaven at the right hand of the Father, as He has been since His ascension (Acts 2:33). From a Preterist perspective, His heavenly reign fulfills the promises of His eternal kingship. He will always reign from heaven, as His kingdom is spiritual and not confined to earthly boundaries (John 18:36).  The problem with this view is that in Revelation we know that the New Jerusalem, which is the church, comes out of heaven to the Earth.  And there are passages which talk about the fact that upon Christs return those who have fallen asleep he will bring with him. Here is a deep dive into that:

The New Jerusalem on Earth

Revelation 21:2-3 describes the New Jerusalem, which represents the church as the bride of Christ, descending out of heaven:

This vision emphasizes the union of heaven and earth, where God’s dwelling is with humanity, not exclusively in heaven. It strongly supports the idea of Christ and God reigning on the renewed earth.

Christ Bringing Those Who Have Fallen Asleep

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 describes Christ's return and the resurrection of believers:

This passage shows that:

  1. Christ will bring with Him the souls of believers who have died.

  2. Their bodies will be resurrected and transformed (as described in 1 Corinthians 15:52-53).

  3. This event marks the eternal union of Christ and His people, but it does not indicate that this union will remain in heaven.

Instead, it fits with Revelation’s depiction of the New Jerusalem descending to Earth, where God and Christ dwell with humanity.

Christ Reigning on Earth

  1. Zechariah 14:9:
    "And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one."

  2. Revelation 5:10:
    "And you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

  3. Revelation 22:3-5:
    "No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more... and they will reign forever and ever."

Implications for Eternity

  1. Christ’s Rule on Earth:
    The idea that Christ’s rule will be exclusively in heaven is not supported by Scripture. Revelation 21-22 clearly states that God’s dwelling place is with humanity, on the renewed Earth.

  2. Resurrected Believers on Earth:
    Believers will dwell on the new Earth with glorified bodies, reigning with Christ in a physical and tangible way (Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Corinthians 15:42-49).

  3. Heaven and Earth United:
    The ultimate fulfillment of God’s plan involves the uniting of heaven and Earth, as described in Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 21-22. This is not an existence confined to a spiritual heaven but a holistic, physical, and spiritual renewal.

Conclusion

The vision of the new creation includes Christ reigning physically and visibly on the new Earth, alongside God the Father, with redeemed humanity living in perfect harmony with Him. The consistent message of Scripture points to a renewed Earth where heaven and Earth are united, fulfilling God’s eternal purpose for creation.



2. What was the point of Him having a physical body if none of His subjects will have physical bodies?

Christ’s physical resurrection validated His victory over death and proved His divine nature. While Preterists believe the resurrection of believers is spiritual rather than physical, Christ’s physical resurrection demonstrated His role as the "firstfruits" (1 Corinthians 15:20) and secured the promise of spiritual life for His followers. The New Testament emphasis on believers being like Him (1 John 3:2) is interpreted spiritually, meaning conformity to His moral and spiritual image, not necessarily a physical one.  But of course this goes againt the clear scripture which says that Jesus and the believers will be ruling here on Earth, as elaborated in point 1 above.

3. What happens in the world? How long does it last? What happens to world governments?


The world continues indefinitely under the ongoing reign of Christ. His kingdom grows like a mustard seed or leaven (Matthew 13:31-33), influencing nations spiritually over time. Governments and earthly systems persist, but Christ’s kingdom transforms individuals and societies as the gospel spreads. Preterists generally avoid speculating on a specific end to the physical world, focusing instead on the enduring spiritual reign of Christ.  We know there is no "end of the world".  Jesus said the meek shall inherit the Earth.  So, although it will be a New Earth, it goes on and we are on it, with Christ (point 1).  As it regards the view that the world will just go on, with war, evil, suffering, and that there is no final judgement or sorting, from the Preterist view if people are judged individually as they die, then what is even the point of the judgement upon death?  The evil just disappear, and the good, reappear on the Earth?  The whole scenario has holes in it that don't make sense and can't be explained.  Whereas an non Preterist view answers these questions.  Here's a dive into that:

Problems with the Full Preterist View

  1. Individual Judgment Upon Death:

  2. Evil Continues Unchecked:

  3. No Final Sorting of Good and Evil:

  4. Lack of Purpose in Resurrection:

Strengths of a Non-Preterist View

  1. Unified, Final Judgment:

  2. Ultimate Defeat of Evil:

  3. Purpose of the Resurrection:

  4. Harmony of New Heavens and New Earth:

  5. Vindication of God’s Justice:

Conclusion

The full Preterist view has fundamental gaps that leave crucial biblical promises—like the defeat of death, the vindication of God's justice, and the hope of bodily resurrection—unfulfilled. In contrast, a non-Preterist perspective accounts for these promises in a way that is both biblically consistent and logically coherent, affirming a future where God’s plan reaches its ultimate fulfillment in a visible, tangible, and eternal way.

4. How does the reality of the New Heaven and Earth manifest? What does it look like to you?

The New Heaven and Earth are understood spiritually, signifying the new covenant relationship between God and His people (Revelation 21:1-4). This reality began with the destruction of the old covenant system (symbolized by the temple in AD 70) and the establishment of the church as the dwelling place of God. It manifests in the church’s role as the Bride of Christ, living out the gospel in a redeemed relationship with God. 

5. As a Christian, what does God say your hope for the future should be?

The hope is eternal life and communion with God in His spiritual kingdom. Preterists emphasize the ongoing, present reality of this hope, as believers live in the light of Christ’s completed work. The focus is on growing in faith, love, and holiness, knowing that Christ’s kingdom has already been established.  Same problem a already mentioned; no resolution, evil, war, and death continue in perpetuity.

6. Where do you go after you die, and in what state will you be?

Preterists believe that upon death, the faithful enter into the presence of God in a spiritual state. The resurrection is seen as spiritual, with believers enjoying eternal life with God. The focus is less on a future physical resurrection and more on the immediate spiritual reality.  There is no physical resurrection according to them, that's why they don't talk about it. This totally ignores the fact that God is going to give the Earth to the meek.

7. If the Second Coming did happen, then the judgment of all formerly living and currently living humans took place at that time. Is there any record in history of that happening?

Preterists interpret the Second Coming as a symbolic event tied to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which represented Christ’s judgment on the old covenant system. The judgment of humanity is viewed as ongoing, as individuals are judged spiritually and eternally at the time of their death. The “all humanity standing before God” imagery is interpreted metaphorically.  Right, but which makes no sense given the deep dives on points 1 and 3 above.

8. If the evil were all tossed in the fire with Satan, why are there still evil people?

Evil persists because humanity retains free will, and Satan’s defeat is understood as spiritual rather than absolute annihilation. The lake of fire in Revelation symbolizes the ultimate spiritual defeat of Satan and his forces, but individual humans still choose rebellion against God.  And so, God did not accomplish what he set out to do and give the Earth to the meek and get rid of evil and death.

9. What are the "books" in Revelation out of which everyone was judged? What purpose did they serve?

The "books" represent God’s perfect knowledge of human deeds and His justice (Revelation 20:12). For Preterists, the judgment described is symbolic of God’s ultimate sovereignty over humanity, especially tied to the covenantal judgment of Israel in AD 70. The books are not physical objects but a representation of divine omniscience.  But again, we've shown above that this symbolic judgement makes no sense.

10. Who was the false prophet and the beast? If that prophecy is already done, who were they?

The false prophet and the beast are often interpreted as symbols of first-century figures and systems. The beast is commonly identified as the Roman Empire or specific emperors like Nero, who persecuted Christians. The false prophet represents corrupt religious leaders who aligned with Rome against the church. These figures are seen as defeated in the spiritual sense through Christ’s victory.

This framework prioritizes a spiritual understanding of prophecy fulfillment, emphasizing the realized reign of Christ and the ongoing spiritual transformation of the world. It does not rely on a physical culmination of events but views biblical prophecy as largely fulfilled in the first century.


You said:

Seems like Christ isn't the firstfruit, he's the only fruit, because we're not going to be like him. He didn't have to have a physical body unless he plans on using it, like to be king of a physical realm, like the New Eath. If the world is just going to go on and reach some Utopia, then how do you explain that in 2000 years we still have all the problems we did back then? So, is the thinking that eventually Christianity will spread throughout and Christians will hold all offices. How does that make sense with the fact that Jesus said the road is narrow and few will find it? Sure, the kingdom has been established, spiritually, the church, but if you say it's all done, then how do you explain the final judgement talked about by Christ (sheep and goat) and in Revelation? The "immediate spiritual reality", how does that coencide with the fact that Christ said one of the reward for a Christian in the life to come is that he will be put in charge of many thing? If judgement is ongoing, then how do you explain that at the end of judgement the books and satan are thrown into the fire, clearly there is a final event. How can the defeat of Satan be metaphorical when also the evil and death itself is tossed in the fire, clearly people are still dying.

ChatGPT said:

From a hardcore Preterist perspective, your points raise some important tensions. Here's how a Preterist might respond to your challenges:

1. Christ as the "Firstfruit" vs. "Only Fruit"

While it may seem Christ is the "only fruit" in a Preterist framework, this is not the case. Preterists interpret being "like Him" (1 John 3:2) spiritually rather than physically. His physical resurrection validated His divine authority and secured spiritual resurrection (eternal life) for believers. The physical body serves to demonstrate God’s ultimate authority over death and to symbolize the life believers receive in the new covenant.  But the Bible tells us that we do not yet know what we will be, but we will be like him.  Simply saying we will be some kind ofspirit being ignores the fact that he was NOT just a spirit.  Here is a deep dive into that.

The Text: 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."

  1. "What we will be has not yet appeared":
    This phrase acknowledges an element of mystery about our future state, but it’s clear that it is future, not something believers fully possess now.

  2. "We shall be like him":
    To be "like Him" must include the whole of Christ's resurrected state, which was both physical and glorified, as evidenced by:

    The Bible never portrays Christ’s resurrected state as merely spiritual, and since we are to be "like Him," this directly contradicts any purely spiritual interpretation.

The Nature of the Resurrection

The New Testament consistently describes the resurrection of believers as physical, not merely spiritual:

  1. Philippians 3:20-21:
    "But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself."

  2. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44:
    "So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."

  3. Romans 8:23:
    "We wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."

Why a Physical Resurrection Matters

  1. Christ’s Resurrection Is the Model:
    Christ’s physical resurrection was a vindication of God’s power over death and decay. If believers are to be "like Him," it would make no sense for our future state to be purely spiritual while His is physical and glorified.

  2. God’s Original Design for Humanity:
    God created humans with physical bodies and declared them "very good" (Genesis 1:31). The resurrection restores and perfects what was broken by sin, bringing creation—including our bodies—to its intended purpose (Romans 8:21-23).

  3. Eternal Life in a New Creation:
    The promise of a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) suggests a physical, tangible existence where God dwells with humanity. Spiritual beings alone would not need a renewed earth.

Preterist Challenges

Preterists attempt to sidestep the implications of passages like 1 John 3:2, Philippians 3:20-21, and 1 Corinthians 15 by spiritualizing them. However, this creates inconsistencies:

  1. If Christ’s Resurrection Was Physical, Why Not Ours?
    They cannot reconcile the idea that Christ’s resurrection body was physical while ours would be only spiritual, especially since the New Testament repeatedly connects the two.

  2. What Purpose Does a Renewed Creation Serve for Spirit Beings?
    If the future hope is purely spiritual, the promise of a new earth becomes redundant.

  3. No Scriptural Basis for Exclusively Spiritual Resurrection:
    The New Testament never teaches that resurrection is spiritual-only; instead, it emphasizes the redemption and transformation of our physical bodies.

Conclusion

To be "like Him" means to share in the fullness of His resurrected glory, which includes both the physical and the spiritual. Reducing the resurrection to a purely spiritual state not only contradicts Scripture but undermines the fullness of God’s redemptive plan. The Bible makes it clear that our future hope is not an escape from physicality but a transformation of it—just as Christ’s resurrection demonstrates.



2. Why Did Christ Have a Physical Body?

Christ’s physical body fulfilled God’s redemptive plan, serving as the perfect sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:5-10). It also demonstrated God’s solidarity with humanity (Philippians 2:6-8). While Preterists believe His reign is spiritual, His physical body affirms the truth of His resurrection and serves as a bridge between the physical and spiritual.  Yeah, clearly this misses the point of all the above scriptures that he serves as an example and proof that all humans will have ternal live in a resurrected physical, glorified body.

3. Why Hasn't the World Reached a Utopia in 2000 Years?

Preterists do not necessarily claim the world will reach a utopia. Instead, they see the kingdom of God as growing progressively, like a mustard seed (Matthew 13:31-32). The persistence of problems reflects human sin and rebellion, which coexist with the gradual spiritual influence of Christ’s reign. The goal is not a perfect earthly society but the transformation of individuals and communities through the gospel.  Right, a totally incohenrent view of the future as discussed above.

4. Will Christianity Eventually Dominate the World?

Preterists do not interpret Jesus’ teaching about the narrow road (Matthew 7:14) to mean Christianity will dominate politically or demographically. Instead, they see it as emphasizing the difficulty of true discipleship. The kingdom grows spiritually and influences society, but widespread acceptance is not guaranteed. Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, so it does not rely on political or institutional dominance.  Yeah, so nothing really changes.  A pathetic view of what God planned and will accomplish.

5. What About the Final Judgment (Sheep and Goats)?

Preterists interpret the sheep and goats judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) as symbolic of the covenantal judgment that occurred in AD 70. The separation of the faithful and unfaithful was tied to the destruction of Jerusalem, which marked the end of the old covenant age. Final judgment for individuals happens spiritually at death, rather than at a single global event.  And as discussed above, that makes no sense.

6. How Does "Immediate Spiritual Reality" Fit with Rewards in the Life to Come?


Rewards like being "put in charge of many things" (Matthew 25:21) are interpreted spiritually. These rewards are seen as increased responsibility and blessing in the spiritual kingdom of God, both now and in eternity. This fits with the idea of believers participating in Christ’s reign through faithful service.  The whole point of Christ was for him to reign over Israel, like David.  Israel being the believers, on the Earth.  That has to happen.  Whatever else might happen is unknown. God didn't create the Earth as our temporary dwelling, it's our permanent, in whatever form that is.  Here is a deep dive into that:

1. Christ’s Reign on Earth

2. Israel as Believers

3. Earth as Humanity’s Permanent Dwelling

4. Being "Put in Charge of Many Things"

5. God’s Purpose for the Earth

Conclusion

You’re right that Christ’s reign, Israel’s restoration, and the Earth’s renewal are deeply interconnected. God’s plan involves a physical, eternal dwelling on Earth, not an ethereal, purely spiritual existence. Christ’s reign as King, like David’s, fulfills God’s promises, and believers will participate in this reign on the renewed Earth, living in harmony with God’s creation as it was always intended.

7. What About the Books and Satan Being Thrown into the Fire?

The "books" and Satan’s defeat are seen as symbolic. The books represent God’s omniscience and perfect judgment. The lake of fire signifies the ultimate defeat of sin, death, and rebellion against God. While the spiritual defeat of Satan occurred at the cross and was symbolized in AD 70, death and sin persist in a practical sense because of humanity’s free will.  Except that were told death and the curse will be gone.  How can the curse be gone if death still exists.  That is part of the curse.  Here is a deep dive:

1. Death and the Curse Are Inseparable

2. Death Will Be Abolished

3. The Curse Affects All Creation

4. The Preterist Dilemma

Preterists argue that death persists in the physical world while claiming the New Heavens and New Earth have arrived spiritually. However, this creates a direct contradiction:

  1. Revelation 21:4 unequivocally states there will be "no more death."

  2. Revelation 22:3 declares that the curse is gone.

  3. If death still exists, then the curse persists, and the New Heavens and New Earth cannot yet be fully realized.

5. Non-Preterist Perspective

The non-Preterist view avoids this contradiction by holding that the New Heavens and New Earth are future realities, ushered in at Christ’s return:

Conclusion

The persistence of death and the curse is one of the most significant challenges to the Preterist interpretation. The Bible explicitly states that death and the curse will be abolished in the New Heavens and New Earth. If death still exists—as it clearly does—then we cannot yet be living in the fully realized New Heavens and New Earth. This undermines the Preterist claim that these prophecies have already been fulfilled.

8. How Can Satan’s Defeat Be Metaphorical if People Still Die?

Preterists emphasize that Satan’s defeat is spiritual. His power over believers was broken at the cross (Colossians 2:15). Physical death persists as part of the natural order, but it no longer holds ultimate power for those in Christ. Death’s final defeat, as described in Revelation, is often understood metaphorically to signify the eternal victory of God’s kingdom.  Same problem as already state.  Incoherent explanation.

Addressing the Broader Concerns

From a Preterist viewpoint:

Preterists might acknowledge that their framework doesn’t address all questions definitively, but they see their interpretation as consistent with a spiritual and covenantal reading of Scripture.  And I've clearly shown that it makes no sense.


You said:

How could the final judgement have taken place? It means that all those who ever lived came to life, and those that were still alive were transformed and met Jesus in the air. The fact that we're all still here shows that didn't happen.

ChatGPT said:

From a Preterist perspective, the "final judgment" as described in passages like Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 is interpreted symbolically or spiritually rather than as a literal, future event. Preterists argue that many of the events described in apocalyptic literature, especially in Revelation, were fulfilled in the first century, particularly with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Here’s how a Preterist might explain these issues:  I'm not going to comment on a lot of the following.  This just clarifies, reitterates what Preterists believe, but we've shown it doesn't come close to explaining many passages.

1. "All those who ever lived came to life" (Resurrection)

Preterists interpret the "resurrection" in passages like Revelation 20:4-6 not as a physical resurrection of every person but as the spiritual awakening of believers. The resurrection is understood in terms of the beginning of the New Covenant era, where people are "raised to life" in Christ through faith (Romans 6:4-5). The "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 refers to the spiritual regeneration that occurs when people come to faith in Christ.

For Preterists, this event was symbolically fulfilled when Christ's judgment was executed on Israel (the old covenant people) at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, representing a spiritual resurrection for the faithful and a judgment for the unfaithful.

2. "Those that were still alive were transformed and met Jesus in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Preterists often interpret this passage, where believers are "caught up in the air" to meet Jesus, as symbolic of the establishment of Christ’s reign and the fulfillment of His promises to His church. Rather than a literal physical transformation or a physical meeting in the air, Preterists see this as the spiritual victory of believers, where the church is taken into full fellowship with Christ as He fully inaugurates His kingdom.

Some Preterists also point to the "coming of the Lord" in this passage as referring to His judgment on Israel in AD 70, which was accompanied by the establishment of the spiritual reign of Christ. The "meeting in the air" could be understood as the church’s "exaltation" or transformation into the spiritual kingdom during that time.

3. Why Are We Still Here?

Preterists would argue that the "end of the age" spoken of in Scripture (Matthew 24:3, Hebrews 9:26, etc.) is not the end of the physical world but the end of the old covenant system—the Jewish age that ended in AD 70 with the destruction of the Temple. They do not expect a literal, physical end to the world, but instead, they view the judgment as already having occurred spiritually, with the transition from the old covenant to the new.

The fact that people are still physically alive today doesn’t contradict the Preterist position because the judgment is seen as a spiritual event, not a physical one. The "coming" of Christ in judgment was seen as a fulfillment of prophecies in the first century, specifically the judgment on Israel, the vindication of the martyrs, and the establishment of Christ’s eternal reign.

4. The Final Judgment

Preterists typically interpret passages like Revelation 20:11-15 (the Great White Throne judgment) as referring to the judgment of Israel and the removal of the old covenant system, rather than a future judgment of all people at the end of time. This judgment is often linked to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, when the old covenant was definitively ended, and those who rejected Christ were judged accordingly.

For Preterists, the "books" in Revelation 20, which contain the deeds of people, are symbolic of the records of those who are judged based on their response to Christ and His kingdom. The "lake of fire" is understood as the symbolic representation of judgment and destruction of the old order (with Israel's judgment in AD 70 being the fulfillment of this).

In summary, Preterists argue that the "final judgment" was spiritually fulfilled in the first century, particularly with the destruction of Jerusalem, and that the references to resurrection, transformation, and judgment are not literal but represent spiritual realities. They believe that Christ’s reign was fully inaugurated in the first century, and the judgment described in the Bible took place in that context, rather than at a future physical event.

You said:

This directly contradicts passages which clearly talk about physical bodily resurrection of ALL. Why can't Preterists see that a physical wrath judgement like God has executed many times, including on Jerusalem in AD70, is separate from the judgement of all based on what they have done in their mortal life?

ChatGPT said:

You're right that there are passages that clearly seem to describe a physical resurrection and a universal judgment based on actions during mortal life (e.g., Revelation 20:11-15, John 5:28-29). The Preterist view can indeed seem to contradict these straightforward readings, especially when it comes to interpreting resurrection and judgment in a physical sense.

Here’s how Preterists would generally respond to your points:

1. The Physical Resurrection of All

Preterists do acknowledge that the Bible speaks of a resurrection, but their interpretation is different. They believe that while some resurrections were spiritual, there is still the reality of a physical resurrection that plays into the fulfillment of God's promises. Preterists often argue that these resurrections are spiritual rather than physical, especially those described in the New Testament as occurring during or around the time of the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

For Preterists, the idea of spiritual resurrection doesn't necessarily mean it excludes the physical, but that the most significant and definitive resurrection has already taken place through Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, as well as the end of the old covenant. They see the resurrection as a new birth into a spiritual kingdom rather than the reanimation of physical bodies.

For example, in Revelation 20, when it speaks about those who were "resurrected" to reign with Christ, this resurrection could be interpreted as referring to believers in Christ who have spiritually passed from death to life in the New Covenant.

2. The Judgment of All Based on Mortal Life

Preterists do believe in a judgment, but they understand that judgment in a spiritual context, often connected to the fall of Jerusalem. For Preterists, the judgment on Israel in AD 70 was the final judgment for that generation, fulfilling many of the end-time prophecies in the Old and New Testaments.

However, they also recognize that there is individual judgment (2 Corinthians 5:10, Hebrews 9:27), but this judgment happens in a spiritual realm, not in a future physical event. The books referred to in Revelation 20 are often seen by Preterists as metaphorical representations of God’s perfect record of human deeds, not literal "books" containing the names of those living.

For Preterists, the judgment of the living and the dead isn’t a future event for all of humanity but was spiritually realized in the judgment of Israel and the establishment of the Church.

3. The Wrath of God (Physical Judgment vs. Spiritual Judgment)

Preterists see the wrath of God as having been fulfilled in various instances throughout history, including the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. They argue that the physical judgment of the city of Jerusalem was a real, historical event where God executed His wrath on a disobedient people. However, Preterists often differentiate between the wrath of God on the old covenant Israel and the eternal judgment that awaits each individual.

In Preterism, the wrath of God can refer to covenant judgment rather than an eternal punishment of individuals after their physical death. Preterists may also see the destruction of Jerusalem as a type or shadow of a greater spiritual judgment — the ultimate destruction of sin and death.

4. Why the Discrepancy with a Literal Bodily Resurrection?

Preterists might argue that when Paul and John speak about a resurrection of the dead and being judged, it’s referring to the transition from the old to the new covenant, with the resurrection being symbolic of the spiritual life believers receive through Christ.

Additionally, they might point to the already/not yet aspect of prophecy: some elements of God's kingdom have been fulfilled spiritually in the first century, but the fullness of all promises (including physical resurrection) is still awaited in the ultimate new heavens and new earth. For Preterists, the resurrection is seen primarily as a spiritual reality where believers are raised to a new life in Christ, though they may also acknowledge that a physical resurrection could occur in some form later.

5. The Final Judgment: Wrath vs. Spiritual Judgment

Preterists argue that the final judgment as described in Revelation (including the lake of fire) was a symbolic judgment primarily fulfilled in AD 70, where the old covenant system was destroyed, and Christ’s kingdom fully took its place. While the final judgment is described in physical terms, Preterists often view these terms symbolically, representing the spiritual destruction of the rebellious old order rather than a literal, final judgment of every person who has ever lived.

Summary of Preterist Position

Preterists interpret the resurrection and judgment as primarily spiritual events that have already been fulfilled in the first century, particularly in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. They view these events as symbolic of the ultimate spiritual realities of the new covenant and the defeat of sin. While the passages you reference about the bodily resurrection and the final judgment appear to describe literal events, Preterists believe these events were fulfilled spiritually and that the physical world continues on while the ultimate victory of Christ has already been secured.

Now, more discussion arguing against their view:

You said:

The argument from Rev 20 doesn't hold, because that's called the first resurrection, so even though that is spiritual, there is a second resurrection, which can only be physical, glorified, bodies.

ChatGPT said:

You raise a critical point. Revelation 20 clearly distinguishes between the first resurrection (which is spiritual) and a second resurrection (which seems to involve physical bodies). This is a strong argument against a purely spiritual Preterist interpretation of all resurrections. Let’s explore this in more detail and how Preterists might respond:

1. The Two Resurrections in Revelation 20

In Revelation 20:5-6, the passage describes:

Preterists often interpret the first resurrection symbolically, seeing it as the spiritual regeneration of believers that began with Christ's resurrection and was fully realized in the events of AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and the final transition from the old covenant to the new. For them, the first resurrection represents the spiritual "coming to life" of the dead in sin, now brought to life through Christ's work.

However, the second resurrection, as you correctly point out, would seem to refer to a physical resurrection because it involves those being judged and cast into the lake of fire, which implies a bodily resurrection to face judgment. Preterists face a challenge in reconciling this with their interpretation, since it seems to point to something more literal than just spiritual realities.

2. The Nature of the Second Resurrection

Many Preterists would argue that the second resurrection is not yet fulfilled but instead refers to the future resurrection of the dead at the end of time, especially in the new heavens and new earth when the eternal state is fully realized.

Some Preterists may also see this event as symbolic in its description, emphasizing that it’s a judgment event that has spiritual and symbolic significance. In this view, the second resurrection could still be seen as a resurrection of the dead to stand before God’s judgment rather than a strictly literal, physical event.

However, you're right in pointing out the difficulty with this interpretation, especially given the distinct nature of the two resurrections in the text. It raises a legitimate question: if the first resurrection is spiritual, why is the second resurrection described with so much emphasis on physical judgment and the subsequent casting of people into the lake of fire?

3. Preterist Challenge and the Physical Resurrection

The crux of the issue for Preterists is that the second resurrection does appear to demand a physical resurrection of bodies, which contrasts with the typical Preterist approach to the resurrection being primarily spiritual.

Some possible Preterist responses to this challenge could include:

4. A Physical Wrath Judgment vs. Spiritual Judgment

The distinction you make between a physical wrath judgment (such as God's wrath on Israel in AD 70) and the universal judgment of all humans is very important. Preterists see the judgment on Jerusalem as a physical, historical event that served as a type or foreshadowing of the greater spiritual judgment that has already been fulfilled in Christ’s death, burial, resurrection, and the transition from the old to the new covenant.

That being said, Preterists generally argue that judgment is primarily spiritual, but they don’t deny that physical elements of God's judgment can be seen in the fulfillment of certain prophecies. In Revelation, the lake of fire, the second resurrection, and the defeat of death and sin all carry symbolic weight, even if they point to an ultimate reality that hasn’t fully played out yet in a physical, earthly context.

5. Physical vs. Spiritual Resurrection

The key issue in Preterism is the dual nature of resurrection, where the first resurrection is understood spiritually (Christ's resurrection and the believer's spiritual regeneration) but the second resurrection seems to suggest a bodily resurrection for the wicked. 

A literal physical resurrection of the dead in the Preterist view could be understood as part of the fullness of God’s kingdom in the new heavens and new earth where believers will experience a glorified physical body, similar to Christ's resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, Philippians 3:21). The second resurrection could be seen as the ultimate restoration of all things, where even the dead and the wicked are raised to life for judgment. What scriptural evidence is there that the second resurrection is only of the wicked, since Revelation makes it clear that the first resurrection is only of those beheaded, which would not be all Christians?  There's nothing vague about that.  People actually were beheaded, and not all were.  Here is the deep dive into that:

1. What Revelation Says About the Two Resurrections

2. Evidence That the Second Resurrection Includes Both Righteous and Wicked

3. The First Resurrection Is Limited

Revelation 20:4-6 specifies that the first resurrection is for:

  1. Martyrs who were beheaded.

  2. Faithful resisters of the beast.

This specificity excludes the majority of believers who did not fall into these categories, indicating that the first resurrection is not a universal event for all Christians.

4. The Nature of the Second Resurrection

5. The Preterist Challenge

Preterists often spiritualize the first resurrection, equating it with spiritual regeneration (being "born again"). However:

Conclusion

The second resurrection in Revelation 20 cannot be limited to the wicked alone. Both Scripture and the context of Revelation describe it as a universal event encompassing all humanity. The specificity of the first resurrection highlights its distinct purpose, but the second resurrection fulfills God’s ultimate plan for final judgment and the eternal destinies of both the righteous and the wicked. This reality aligns with the broader biblical teaching of a physical resurrection for all at the end of history.



Conclusion

You're absolutely right to point out that Revelation 20 clearly distinguishes between two resurrections, one spiritual and one physical. The Preterist view faces tension in this regard, particularly when it comes to the second resurrection. Some might argue that the second resurrection could be interpreted as a symbolic event, yet it's hard to ignore the strong physical implications.

In any case, the interpretation of resurrection in Preterism doesn’t always align neatly with a strictly literal, physical resurrection of all people, and this remains a significant challenge in their system of interpretation. The physicality of the second resurrection, as you've pointed out, is not easily dismissed if one takes the text at face value.


You said:

So, you mentioned the "crux" but if you have to boil it down, what is the presupposition from which their whole view stems? For example, since it's been 2000 years, did they feel they needed to explain away the second coming? What do you think is driving them? And when did the whole Preterist view start?

ChatGPT said:

The crux of Preterism can be boiled down to a central presupposition: the belief that many (if not most) biblical prophecies, particularly those in Revelation, were fulfilled in the first century, with the key event being the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This perspective is driven by several factors:

1. Presupposition of Immediate Fulfillment:

Preterists often begin with the presupposition that the prophecies in the New Testament, particularly those about the second coming, judgment, and the establishment of God's kingdom, were intended to be fulfilled immediately for the original audience (the first-century church), not thousands of years later. They believe that Christ’s kingdom was inaugurated in the first century, and the judgment described in the Gospels and Revelation was fulfilled in that generation with the destruction of the Jewish temple and the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

For Preterists, this belief stems from a historical-contextual reading of the New Testament, where many of Jesus' predictions of the coming kingdom, tribulation, and judgment seem to be addressed to those who were alive at that time. Jesus said, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32). Preterists interpret this literally, asserting that Jesus was speaking to the first-century audience about events that would transpire within their lifetimes.

2. Desire to Address the Long Delay of the Second Coming:

As you mentioned, the long delay—now over 2000 years—has indeed posed a theological challenge. Preterists sought to explain away the delay of Christ’s second coming by asserting that many of the prophecies about Christ’s return, final judgment, and the establishment of the kingdom were spiritually fulfilled in the first century. They don't deny that a final, future consummation of God's kingdom will happen, but they argue that the main prophecies (particularly those in Revelation) were already fulfilled in a historical context (AD 70) and that the church is now living in the "already" of the kingdom, waiting for the "not yet" final fulfillment.

In essence, Preterism seeks to reconcile the delay of Christ's second coming by claiming that spiritual realities have already been fully realized, even if a final physical transformation or consummation is yet to come.

3. Historical Context of Preterism:

The origins of Preterism can be traced back to the early church but became more fully articulated in the 16th and 17th centuries. Early church fathers such as Origen and Augustine expressed ideas that resembled Preterism, particularly regarding the symbolic nature of Revelation and the fulfillment of prophecies in the fall of Jerusalem.  But Paul and othes specifically told people not to believe those that say that Christ has already come, and pointed out what it will be like, so people are not confused.  Here's the deep dive:

  1. Paul Expected a Future, Global, and Bodily Event

  2. AD 70 Does Not Match Key Events

  3. The Resurrection Was Not Spiritualized by Paul

  4. Post-AD 70 Christian Writings Reject Preterism

  5. "This Generation" and Time Indicators

  6. Paul Was Not Writing About AD 70

Conclusion

The Preterist claim that Paul’s teachings were fulfilled in AD 70 faces significant challenges:

  1. The universal, visible, and transformative nature of Christ’s return described by Paul cannot be reconciled with a localized, symbolic event.

  2. Early Christian writings post-AD 70 clearly show the church still expected Christ’s return as a future event.

  3. The fall of Jerusalem, while momentous, does not fulfill the comprehensive eschatological promises outlined in the New Testament.

However, the formalization of Preterism as a distinct interpretative school began in the late 16th century during the Reformation. Luis de León, a Spanish theologian, is sometimes credited with early Preterist ideas. But it was Hernán Cortés, a 17th-century Spanish priest, who began to articulate a more systematic view of Preterism in response to the prevailing futurist interpretations of Revelation (which viewed the events in Revelation as still to come in the distant future).

The rise of Postmillennialism in the 17th and 18th centuries also contributed to the development of Preterism, as many Postmillennialists wanted to see the kingdom of God as something already inaugurated (but still in a process of expansion) rather than something entirely future. This movement to see the kingdom already established laid a foundation for Preterist views.

4. Why Did Preterism Emerge?

Preterism was, in part, a reaction to the dominant views of futurism and dispensationalism that gained momentum in the 19th and 20th centuries, especially in American evangelicalism. Futurism interprets prophecies (especially in Revelation) as referring to future events, often ascribing a role to Israel, a millennial kingdom, and a literal second coming of Christ at the end of the age. Preterism, in contrast, asserts that most prophecies were fulfilled in the first century, particularly with the destruction of Jerusalem, and doesn't require a long-term delay in the second coming. 

In this way, Preterism served as a theological framework to answer questions about the delay of Christ’s return and the apparent delay of the fulfillment of prophecies in the life of the church. By claiming that most of the end-times prophecies had already been fulfilled, Preterists essentially removed the mystery of the long delay of Christ’s return, focusing on the present fulfillment of God's kingdom through the church and the judgment on Israel in AD 70.  So, really it's a pendulum swing too far, an overreaction.

5. Motivation Behind Preterism

In short, the driving motivation behind Preterism is a desire to understand prophecy in a way that aligns with the events already known in history, particularly with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, while also preserving the faith that Christ’s promises are true. Preterists believe that many of the “end times” events are already fulfilled, and we live in the age of the fulfilled kingdom, even if there is a future consummation of God’s kingdom still to be expected.  The way to preserve the faith is to still have faith, not come up with a story that rquires no further faith of coming events!  Hello.

Summary:



You said:

So, what is the most "difficult" fact for Preterists to answer? What is the strongest case against them?

ChatGPT said:

The most difficult fact for Preterists to answer—and arguably the strongest case against their view—lies in the clear distinction between the events of the "coming in judgment" (AD 70) and the physical resurrection and final judgment as described in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. The challenge arises in reconciling these events with their view that everything has been fulfilled in the first century, particularly because the physical resurrection and final judgment are distinctly portrayed in scripture as future, global, and final events.

Key Points of Difficulty for Preterists:

  1. The Clear Distinction Between the "Coming in Judgment" and the "Second Coming":

  2. The Resurrection and Final Judgment in Revelation 20:

  3. The Unfulfilled State of the World:

  4. The Future Hope of Christians:

The Strongest Case Against Preterism:

The most powerful case against Preterism is the future physical resurrection and final judgment of all people, as explicitly detailed in several key New Testament passages. The two-stage resurrection in Revelation 20, Jesus' teachings about the final judgment (e.g., separating the sheep and goats in Matthew 25), and the promise of a new heaven and earth all point to events that have not yet been fulfilled in history.

Ultimately, while Preterism offers an explanation for the judgment on Israel in AD 70, it struggles to account for the future promises of resurrection, final judgment, and the new creation—events that Jesus and the apostles clearly indicated would occur in the future.


You said:

In John Jesus gives several verses where he's talking about a day is coming and then a day has come already. What are those?

ChatGPT said:

In the Gospel of John, Jesus often speaks of "a day is coming" and sometimes adds "and has now come." These phrases highlight the tension between the "already" and "not yet" aspects of His mission. He refers to events that are currently being fulfilled in His ministry while pointing to future realities. Below are the key passages where Jesus makes these distinctions:

You may be thinking of John 5:28-29, which speaks about the future physical resurrection and judgment. This passage uses similar language but points explicitly to a future event. Here's the text:

John 5:28-29 (Future Physical Resurrection)

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Key Points:

Connection to the "Already and Not Yet":

This passage emphasizes the future reality that has yet to occur, differentiating it from the "now" aspect of Jesus' ministry. It harmonizes with other teachings about the future resurrection, such as 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, pointing to the ultimate fulfillment of God's redemptive plan.


You said:

So Preterists believe we are in the New Heaven and Earth now?

ChatGPT said:

Yes, Full Preterists believe that we are currently living in the New Heaven and New Earth, as described in Revelation 21-22. They interpret these chapters symbolically, understanding the New Heaven and Earth not as a future physical reality but as a present spiritual reality inaugurated after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Here's how they justify this belief and the challenges it faces:

How Full Preterists Interpret the New Heaven and Earth

  1. Symbolism of Renewal:

  2. God Dwelling with Humanity (Revelation 21:3):

  3. No More Tears, Death, or Mourning (Revelation 21:4):

  4. The River of Life and Tree of Life (Revelation 22):

Challenges to This Interpretation

  1. Physical and Cosmic Language:

  2. Present Reality of Evil and Death:

  3. Promise of Physical Resurrection:

  4. Global Scope:

  5. Final Defeat of Evil:

Partial Preterist Perspective

Partial Preterists reject the idea that the New Heaven and Earth have already arrived. Instead, they view the events of AD 70 as a type or foreshadowing of the ultimate fulfillment still to come. They believe the New Heaven and Earth will be a future reality involving the complete renewal of creation, including the physical resurrection and the final judgment.

In summary, while Full Preterists interpret the New Heaven and Earth as a spiritual reality realized now, their view struggles to account for the ongoing presence of physical death, suffering, and evil, which the Bible portrays as being eradicated in the New Heaven and Earth.